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Employer of the Future

Talent may top the list of things that cause CEOs in competitive markets to lose sleep. In order to succeed as an employer of the future, businesses may need to future-proof their talent strategies to attract, develop and retain top talent.

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Tech Trends Episode 12 Transcript

Anish Bhimani: Welcome to Tech Trends. Tech trends is a podcast series that provides perspective on the latest trends of technology, fintech, and digital. Today's episode is entitled "The Employer of the Future" and I'll provide insight on how to develop a talent strategy. How to attract, develop, and retain your top talent, and how increasing technology fluency is becoming an imperative for businesses that want to maintain a competitive edge.

I'm Anish Bhimani, Chief Information Officer for Commercial Banking, and joining me today is Matt Mitro, firm-wide Head of Campus Recruiting at JP Morgan Chase. Matt, welcome to Tech Trends.

Matt Mitro: Thanks Anish, great to be here.

Anish Bhimani: So Matt, on this show we tend to talk about a lot of different technologies and how business leaders can think about those technologies to better serve their customers or drive their strategy, or otherwise impact their success. At the heart of that, though, is people, right? We talk about talent on just about every episode we do. Right, so, how can business leaders think about attracting top talent?

Matt Mitro: And I think that's the right question because talent is absolutely critical. Some of the things that you wanna do with technology are not gonna be possible if you don't have the right talent. In fact, when they do survey CEOs, talent comes out as that number one item of criticality for their firms followed by number two, the worry about the ability to respond to disruption that's going to come from technologies. So, talent is part of the solution to both of those top problems. So the first piece of advice I would give is, it's important to invest accordingly. You need to understand exactly how much of this kind of talent, what kind of skills do I need, and more likely than not, you're going to need to invest more than you currently are. It's a hyper-competitive environment, and there are a lot of players all making similar pivots to you, so that's going to be critical, but on the other hand, you don't want to over-invest.

So if you're bringing in talent that is too highly skilled for the kind of work that you have in your work environment, they're not going to feel challenged, and they're going to leave. So, getting that right is critical.

I'd also say having a really strong recruiting leader is important, so you need someone who understands the landscape of recruiting, skilled in evaluating and finding technical talent. It's just a different discipline, so you really need the right person.

The next thing I'd say is, it's really important that you challenge your sort of assumptions about how you're going to find these folks and how you're going to evaluate them. So, where you look is really important. You have to stop making assumptions that I'm only going to find them in this one place or at this one university or at this one set of firms. You're gonna need to cast a pretty broad net and be pretty open-minded about that. I also have seen companies make the mistake of thinking that they're just going to be able to leverage technology itself to sort of solve their recruiting challenges, and that's often not the case either. You really are going to need to get a willing workforce involved in your recruiting strategy, so both of those things are just mentality shifts that need to happen within a lot of companies.

And then the last thing is really important to focus on diversity. Public perception of how diversity is received within firms is really poor right now, and there's a lot of research on the importance of diversity to culture and also to product development. So, obviously, if you don't have a diverse enough team, they're not going to be making products for all of your customers.

So, those are some of the big thematic areas in talent acquisition right now.

Anish Bhimani: Okay, so it's a really hot market, right? Attracting top talent can often be easier said than done. What can leaders do to make their companies more attractive to top talent?

Matt Mitro: Culture is always the gateway to attracting talent. You have to get that right, and in fact, there's no more hiding about that. So, products like Glassdoor where your employees can write reviews about you, and just sort of word-of-mouth on how quickly that can circulate is going to make or break your sort of employer brand. So that's always your anchor. I think engaging your employees is critically important. So they need to be those sort of citizens for you who are doing things beyond their day job. Whether that's going to campus, getting involved in some curriculum at a local college, or even just the nuts and bolts of interviewing the number of people that you need to hire.

They're also just your cultural ambassadors in addition to being sort of the arms and legs of your organization in terms of recruiting. And then, I would say it's really important as well to think through how much of our strategy in recruitment is going to be done sort of virtually, where we reach out to people from our desks using some of these new tools and how much of it is going to be in person. And, my advice would be definitely make sure you get that mix right. You may wanna do more in person work than you think.

The way the technology talent landscape is right now, they really expect you to come to them. So if you're not showing up, then they're not probably going to give you their business, so to speak. So that's another really important thing.

Anish Bhimani: So it's almost like having the right marketing plan, if you will, for your brand, in terms of where you're proactively out there, not just when you're recruiting, but sort of building that brand and 'here's who we are, and what we stand for.'

Matt Mitro: That's right, and you're gonna need those employees to help you build that brand. And it's sort of two pieces, it's both your brand as an employer, like, what is it like to work at this company, and also your technology and product brand is important too. So one of the things that attracts top technology talent is this idea that I'm working on a product that millions and billions of people use, that maybe my parents or colleagues use everyday, and I'm part of that workforce that builds that. That's really attractive, and sometimes a lot of firms don't do a great job of showcasing their technology chops. Even going to market and talking about how do we use technology even though we may not be a technology company, but what are the kind of things that we do that may not be part of the public consciousness and trying to build that.

Matt Mitro: Yeah, and I think that sort of starts at the top as well and understanding what is the purpose of the firm? How are we impacting communities? And there's a lot of discussion around how do you build purpose-driven companies going sort of beyond that mission statement. So that's certainly a piece of it, and then there's just the day-to-day, what is it like to work there, and what kind of things do we do in our community, that also matters. I know one example here at JP Morgan Chase that I'm very proud of, and I think you are too, is around our tech for social good initiatives, where we have programs like Force for Good where employees build products for nonprofits over the course of 9 months that help them solve technical challenges or something like Code for Good where we run 24-hour hackathons for students from underrepresented backgrounds, building sort of rudimentary solutions for nonprofits.

I think that kind of ability to show that beyond the day-to-day and what products you're building and the impact that they have is just as employees of the organization, what kind of work do we get to do and serve our community, even if you're not building a world-changing product per se, for millions and billions of people, just giving your employees that opportunity to give back is going to be really, really important to both them and also to your employer brand.

Anish Bhimani: Yeah, and we've had thousands of people participate in those programs, right? It really is something that attracts a lot of people, they really enjoy doing that kind of work.

Matt Mitro: Yeah, absolutely, and I think we've found in particular when you look at the next generation of employees, it's one of their top 3 or 4 items along with sort of career development, being well taken care of, having technical challenges, and then that last piece is really feeling like they have an impact. So that is definitely important.

Anish Bhimani: Culture is a big topic. How about the environment? How important is the environment that you work in? You know, space, amenities, things like that, how much of that is just, like a gimmick, versus actually, no it really matters?

Matt Mitro: Some of those are not as important as some of these other more important cultural elements. You definitely have to have great benefits, great pay, great work environment, great technical systems for technical employees. Those things are sort of the threshold you have to have before you can be considered a top employer. But after that, there's a lot of other things that really matter. One is, make sure that they're solving complex technical challenges. We really wanna showcase to them before they get into the firm that these are the kind of problems you're going to be solving. For technically minded candidates, that's really important. They wanna feel that challenge.

The second thing is they want to feel like there's a career path for them at the firm, and perhaps even something very structured and formal, where they understand that at each year of their time spent at the firm, they're gonna grow and learn both technically, in the sort of, let's say coding languages they understand and technical skills they have, but also professionally. How is this firm going to help me be a leader? How is this firm going to help me become a product manager if I'm currently just a coder? I think they want to be able to see that and sort of believe that that's part of what you're going to be able to do at a company.

And then the last thing is around sort of the impact that the firm is going to have in the community. I think that's an increasingly important part of the employer brand and something that incoming folks really care about, and you wanna really think how are we showcasing that, and how is that a real part of their everyday experience at the firm.

Anish Bhimani: Yeah, that's great. I always tell people that there's four questions you should ask yourself, right? Number one is do I like what I do? Is the work interesting, am I challenged, do I get excited to come to work everyday, right? Number two is do I like the people I work with? Because, you know the culture is so important, and life's way too short to work with people you don't like, right? Third is do I work for somebody that I respect, that I can learn from, that's going to help me grow, etc? And fourth is am I adequately recognized for what I do, whatever that means to you. If that's compensation, if that's work assignments, if it's new challenges, if it's promotions or whatever, and if you can answer yes to all four of those, you're in great shape and, not everybody can, right?

Matt Mitro: That's absolutely right and I think that starts with your employee base, right? So a lot of what you're describing is, how does my manager operate, how does my team operate, and that's something that you can work hard to establish. How have we built an inclusive environment for lots of different types of people to be effective? So even things like how do we set up coding projects and design sprints, and who's invited, not invited, and when we're in a meeting setting, how do we make sure we're getting lots of different voices? How do we teach and train our managers to be effective, and do that in a scaled, rigorous way. And I know at our firm, we have Leadership Edge, which is our sort of signature manager training program and that's a great example of making a very large commitment so that when people walk in the door, they're having that experience that you're describing.

Anish Bhimani: So, a lot of focus on attracting talent, and how do you hire people and other things like that, but hiring from the outside can often be the most expensive way. People don't spend much time focusing on development and retention of staff they already have. How do you focus on developing, re-skilling, and other things like that, and what you can do to retain top talent?

Matt Mitro: Yeah, certainly right, depending on the talent marketplace that you're playing in, that it might be more effective to actually build some of those skillsets internally versus go to market. I think the most important thing, and maybe the hardest thing is actually having a plan. So, sometimes, looking five years out at the kind of skills that you're going to need in an organization is very difficult. You may not even know exactly what your current skill base looks like at scale. How many people are really experts in a very particular topic? And then it's also difficult to forecast well, how many people with that skillset am I going to need?

So, it starts with sort of having a plan and understanding where you're trying to go. And then from there, there are a number of things that you wanna look at.

So, one would be, if I need to up-skill my employees, so I've got a number of people who are good in one technical skill but not another, how do I bridge that gap? Some of it might be internal, maybe you wanna build a learning center of excellence where you teach that skill if it's that important.

And other times, it just may be offering an education benefit where people can go out and learn online or learn at a local college, how they pick up that skillset and you can signal to them that that's important. It sort of depends on the situation you're in what kind of plan you're building.

And then there's this broader concept of re-skilling where you may have non-technical employees that you're trying to get into a technical role. I think that's one of the hardest things to solve at scale right now. How do I even know if I have A hundred thousand let's say bank branch employees, which of those are going to be the right fit to do a technical job in the future, who have the potential to do that? I don't think anyone's really figured out how to identify them, let alone sent through, like the sort of learning path and journey.

Anish Bhimani: So let's talk on development a little more. As you say, bridge it in 2 areas, right? So the first one is, is development of staff in terms of expanding capabilities. There might be, you know, folks listening, say 'well, yeah, I get it' we're not really a tech company, right, but I think it's important to realize that increasing the technology fluency of an organization is paramount importance right now just because technology is so pervasive, right? Whether it be, design, thinking machine learning, other things like that, and you know, you said something about not wanting to over hire folks to say, if you bring in highly technical people and they're not challenged, they're probably going to leave, right? So how do you think about just expanding technology fluency for nontechnical folks?

Matt Mitro: There's this concept that I like to talk about called digital dexterity, and that's sort of a popular concept where the idea is yes, you may not have a technical role, but you definitely need to understand technical concepts, or you need to be able to explain the way an engineer thinks to a non-engineer. That could be a customer, that could be a candidate, that could be a client. The challenge is how do you facilitate that.

But I do think that if you're working in an environment where you have both engineers and non-engineers, you have a real opportunity of course. So how do you create those learning opportunities? And I think one of the things that people often neglect is you could send people externally to get some of that training and learning, but it may not really apply to the context that you have as a firm. I think more often than not, you're going to want to create some kind of internal forum or learning environment where you can teach your non-technical folks what your engineers know so that when they're interfacing with those clients, they're really well versed rather than going external.

It's just something to think about and again, anytime you do that kind of learning activity in house, it also tends to build some loyalty to the organization, to the firm, so, I think you're going to see a lot of companies who are either tech firms or not tech firms invest in that space considerably over the next few years.

Anish Bhimani: Yeah I think back to like, when the internet was still relatively new and you had a lot of these sort of reverse mentorships, right, where you had sort of the digital natives coming in and teaching some of the more seasoned folks in terms of how this works and how to think differently around that, right? I think we'll see a little bit more of that as well, right?

Matt Mitro: Absolutely, and I think when you have senior leaders in a firm who maybe have been there a long time and not as well versed as you in sort of technology, it is going to be important to bridge that gap because one of the things that I see from my vantage point working with students, is they are coming in very well equipped and understanding technology. They were digital natives and now they come in expecting that from the work environment and not always finding that.

Anish Bhimani: Not always finding it, absolutely true.

Matt Mitro: And it may be the systems that you work on, it may be the senior leader in your organization not being particularly technically fluent, so you can't just focus at the entry level and the mid level, you also need to focus at the leadership level and making sure there's a real continuous learning and education. One of the things I've found since I've worked here is that the senior-most leaders in our firm really are paying attention to technical trends and spending deep-dive, three four hour, or multi-day sessions learning about that technology because if they don't understand it, not only can they not push it through into the workforce, but they may miss some trend that's gonna cause a business issue for them where they're not responding to what some startup or some other firm is doing. Definitely that's an important part of not just your talent strategy, but also your business strategy.

Anish Bhimani: Right, so we talked about increasing technology fluency, digital dexterity as you call it, right? We also touched on re-skilling, right? And this becomes a very emotive topic for a lot of people. As we deploy more things like artificial intelligence and any sort of innovation like that, there's often disruption to certain jobs and job families and other things like that. What kind of efforts or responsibility do companies have to retrain or re-skill people whose jobs may not exist in ten or fifteen years?

Matt Mitro: I think that landscape is shifting quite a lot right now. We've even seen the business round table recently come out and say it's not just shareholder value that matters, but stakeholder value, and that includes both communities and your employee base. Part of the way that translates into the technology and the talent landscape is that it means I do think you're going to increasingly have a commitment to help your employees re-skill and transition into the jobs of the future, especially since some of that's going to be coming over four or five years, you have the opportunity to start preparing them for that. The way that that gets executed is still something that firms are figuring out, but I think one of the core principles will be, you should expect there to be more in-house learning, in-house retraining, more centers of excellence in learning that are housed within companies rather than them expecting their employees to go out somewhere else or to rely on some government agency for retraining.

And in fact, that's also important because you want your employees who have this knowledge of your company and your business and your culture to get the technical skills they need in your environment so that they understand how it's going to need to be applied in your environment. So, I think that's a big area that's coming for the next.

Anish Bhimani: Yeah, plus you have a sort of proven capability, right? They've been here, they know the firm, they've had some loyalty to the firm, other things like that, to the point before, you know, hiring people from the outside can often be a crapshoot, these are known quantities, right? So I think it is, does behoove people to sort of think about how do you retrain those that have an interest in doing so.

Matt Mitro: That's right, and it gets back to this blurring line between what I call talent acquisition and talent development. How much do I pay to go find people in the market who, like you said, are not necessarily a known quantity versus I take these high performers that know our culture and I teach them what they need to know. I think you're going to start to see a real healthy tension there, between where firms are investing. Maybe even over-indexing, especially in the technical domain, in talent development versus talent acquisition because the talent acquisition market is so competitive and there are also constraints, whether it be the diversity of the talent pool, or amount of money you need to spend increasingly to be a player there.

Anish Bhimani: Okay, so let's talk about diversity. We've all seen the stats, the diverse teams just generally perform better, right? They have better outcomes, correlate to better results, et cetera, right? And that's a broad definition of diversity. Diversity of thought, people with different backgrounds. How do you find diverse talent in this market, especially given the apparent shortage of diversity in technical programs in schools?

Matt Mitro: I think one of things it's important to start out with is making sure that your leaders and your employees understand why there might be this shortage of diverse talent. I like to educate my clients and also my teams on some of the systemic barriers that are in place. Those are not always well known or recognized. Everything from the way that K-12 computer science education is implemented in the United States, when in fact only five percent of high schools offer AP Computer Science, for example. So, as you can imagine, there are entire communities who have not been exposed to computing.

You've also got very popular misconceptions in the media about who can code, also work environments which have not always been hospitable to people from different backgrounds to be a software engineer, for example. It's important for people in the workforce to understand that those things are real and persistent and they haven't been, sort of, rectified yet, so going into it, it's going to be a big challenge, and it's going to require a large investment.

We also need to focus on the culture, so making sure you have an inclusive culture. It's not very helpful to bring in a diverse employee base and then have them get here and leave because they're not able to be productive for whatever reason. So, little things from how we design our engineering teams and how they work together, to making sure voices are heard in meetings, to thinking about who are our leaders, are they people of color and women? Those are really important items for people who are deciding to join a firm and who come from one of these underrepresented backgrounds. So that's super important.

Then, when you go to market, I really believe you have to have a physical presence in some of these communities. It's not enough to kind of show up a couple times a year, try and recruit there, and then go back to where your firm is located. Increasingly, you need to be a part of those communities and embedded. So we've done a lot of work with historically black colleges and we've made a particular effort to say what else as a firm can we bring to those communities that is not just recruiting opportunities.

So for example, we'll do financial health and wellness work with them as a bank, make sure we're contributing to that part of their community. We will do infrastructure support through our Code for Good program, and our Force for Good program, where we build technical products for them. That's seen as a real addition to the community, and then it makes the recruiting part much, much easier.

And I think one of the last pieces is really thinking through your end-to-end recruitment process. You really need to challenge your assumptions about how well it's working, particularly for these diverse communities. So, within the process starting at the sort of resume review stage all the way to the interview stage, there's always this unconscious bias that can creep in, again not intentionally, but it's just sort of part of human nature. So if you and I are looking at a hundred different resumes, we're gonna pick ten people to interview that are completely different. Not because we have any kind of bias, but we are making assumptions about the data points on that page that may or may not translate into success at the firm. So understanding that and thinking about how can I control for that.

Then, secondly, there's a burgeoning set of technologies around assessment, particularly coding assessments. It's a very technical area, but understanding how some of those can have sort of adverse impact is really important and controlling for that.

And then the last piece is around the interview. So, thinking about a lot of firms do sort of whiteboard coding interviews where you sort of stand and present your code. Well, that can be particularly challenging for some people who haven't been coached in that environment. It may not allow them to show exactly what they can do just because it's a very high pressure, sort of performative experience that may not work for everybody. And likewise, if you and I are just having an interview and you know, I may not have a really clear idea of what competencies I'm evaluating and what kind of questions I'm asking to get at those competencies, or even a consistent way of scoring those things, then I'm more likely to make a judgment that's just, I like Anish versus I know that he can actually do this job. So, getting more rigorous and scientific in your process also really helps diverse your candidates and there's a lot of sort of research and literature on that topic.

Anish Bhimani: But it sounds like everything we've focused on is about how do companies get a greater share of the existing pie. Is there any effort or responsibility of companies to say how do we sort of expand the pool, if you will, right? If everybody's sort of fighting over the same finite pool, you're only going to get so far.

Matt Mitro: That's right, and I think that is going to be a major trend in the near future as well, is getting that mix between talent acquisition and talent development right. Because what you're describing is the concept of, maybe we hire more for potential, bring those folks into the company and teach them the technical skill gap that they may have. I think that's very trendy, so even in the student space, we have a program here at JP Morgan Chase called Tech Connect, where we bring in people who may not have had that formal technology training, but we give them a chance to demonstrate that here for a period of time, and we also educate them in those technical skills, and we've found that not only is that a more diverse talent pool, but they have also been very successful at the firm, integrating into our software engineering culture. Programs like that are going to become very, very common, and very, very important.

Anish Bhimani: Right, so don't be put off, I should say, by the number of graduates in certain fields, look more broadly for that, there's also nontraditional approaches, apprentice programs, other things like that we can do as well, right?

Matt Mitro: Absolutely, and I think it's important to know some of the figures and facts about computer science education. So only about 20-25% of computer science graduates are female, so you're always going to have that kind of market constraint, but a lot of technology firms aren't even hitting that number, and the same is true for black and Hispanic coders. They're considerably underrepresented, sort of 8-10%, but there's definitely plenty of talent out there, so I really bristle at the concept that there's a sort of a talent pipeline issue. It's really incumbent on the firms to understand how am I going to find that talent, and how am I going to grow them and take some accountability for some of those gaps between the diversity of the talent pool and the diversity and representation at these firms. That's definitely a big trend is that the companies are taking more responsibility for solving that challenge.

Anish Bhimani: You mention technology for recruiting. Using social media to get the word out there, video interviews, different kinds of assessments, are those gimmicks or are those fundamental changes in the way we recruit?

Matt Mitro: I generally think those are pretty fundamental changes and they kind of get at the heart of what do people do better, and what do technology potentially do better than people? And getting that mix right is really difficult, but a challenge that's going to be facing recruiters for a while to come. There are sort of three very large technology domains which you sort of hit at. So, first, is how do we effectively use social media to build our employer brand. I think everyone's gotta have a presence there if they want technology candidates to understand what their firm is about from a culture standpoint.

The second is how do we reach those students? It used to be that I would go to campus and I had no idea who I was going to meet, I'd bring you with me, maybe we'd find the right candidates, maybe we wouldn't. And then particularly from a diversity lens, maybe we wouldn't get that rich, diverse pool of candidates that we'd like to get, but then we'd go back home. And in the current state right now, there's a number of LinkedIn type platforms where a lot of students are present, for example, or professionals. So think about things like GitHub, Stack Overflow, there's a product called Piazza for students.The ability to find and get information about who's out in the market is really there now, so it becomes more incumbent on companies to design experiences where they're going to a place where they have a hub, or they're going to a campus and before the get there, they already know who's going to be in attendance and they really prioritize and kind of curate that group. So that's a second important area that's changing recruiting a lot, the sort of proactivity of it.

Anish Bhimani: It's like scouting.

Matt Mitro: It's very much like scouting and, in fact, if you don't have some of those tools, you know, you're kind of flying blind. And so the goal from a recruiter's standpoint is how do I find diamonds in the rough that no one else is talking to, because I have their information and maybe I'm able to go a place where no one else is going. So that's critical.

And then the third space which you touched on is in the assessments domain. How do you use some new technology to evaluate people's potential to do a job, and then also how do you use things like coding assessments to evaluate whether they already know how to code. That's a pretty ubiquitous piece of technology.

Anish Bhimani: The coding assessment?

Matt Mitro: The coding assessment, that's right. Over time, what I expect is, there's going to be some level of credentialing that's going to happen where people sort of port around their assessment results with them from company to company sort of like the common application for college or SAT scores. That's going to eventually come to recruiting. But one of the technologies I find particularly interesting is around how do you evaluate potential and we're using a product here at the firm called Pymetrics which I think is really fascinating. It's based on neuroscience research, and it uses gamification to assess 70-90 social, cognitive, and emotional traits in human beings. They may not have the skills yet, but they at least have sort of the inclination. It's still sort of in a pilot stage, and it also helps address the sort of re-skilling challenge around how do I figure out which non-technical employees could become my technology employees of the future. And I think you're going to see some of that technology help answer that question.

Anish Bhimani: So it really is about assessing potential rather than skills, right, so just because you haven't done it in the past doesn't mean you can't do it in the future. Traditionally, that had been always sort of a little bit of a risky approach, right, but getting some objective assessments out of that should help, and then it also sounds like that could really start to address some of the unconscious bias issues that come up whenever you do sort of look at a resume, or where somebody went to school, or other things like that.

Matt Mitro: We're hopeful!

Anish Bhimani: Yeah, so everything we've talked about so far, again, very powerful, right, using technology to recruit, expanding your presence maybe in underrepresented areas, investing in attracting top talent, are all great for larger companies, right? So if I'm a smaller company, what can I do?

Matt Mitro: A lot of these sophisticated technologies and topics that I'm speaking about may not be completely accessible to you as a smaller firm, but I actually think you have the ability to be really competitive for a few key reasons. A lot of technical talent want to work in a smaller environment, so you've got a leg up right there, off the gate.

Secondly, you really have to ask yourself, what kind of technical talent do I need? You may not need to go head-to-head with the larger firms. You may only need classic, sort of front-end, software developer, that might be fine for your needs. Or alternatively, you may want to outsource some of that to a technology vendor. That's a perfectly great way to go just given the complexity of what I'm sharing.

And then, I think the most important tip would be look in your sort of local community, there's probably some kind of vocational college or technical institute where you can recruit. It also helps you get your employees involved. Because maybe you want to go reach out to that community institution and say, hey can we offer you some curricular development experience, some career prep for your students. In doing so, you're going to find that there's talent that you didn't expect there, and also your employees are going to enjoy that experience, and it's going to help build your brand in sort of the community or region that you operate. So some of those things are really not that complicated, so you don't need to always have a national recruiting footprint, that may not always be necessary.

And then the last thing I would share is, just getting your culture right, again, is super important. So there might be things that you can do, just be more welcoming and inclusive. Whether it's the way your teams are operating, or the kind of benefits that you offer that might be appealing for diverse communities. Some of those things are not really that expensive, but when people come to interview or they have an internship or they come have an experience with your firm, they'll notice those things and that may be really attractive to them. But again, not super expensive, not sort of industrial strength talent acquisition and talent development, but those things work.

Anish Bhimani: So it is all about culture in the end.

Matt Mitro: Absolutely, I think that's maybe one of the top takeaways is you've gotta get that right and there's a lot of little things and also sometimes big things that you may need to do.

Anish Bhimani: Finally, what's the one thing, the one piece of advice you'd give folks on how to improve their talent strategy?

Matt Mitro: I think getting your employees involved is absolutely critical, for a number of reasons. One, they're going to be the folks who are your sort of workforce, doing the interviewing, going on campus,

Anish Bhimani: Your ambassadors, basically.

Matt Mitro: Your ambassadors, they're going to be out in your community, so you definitely need them. You won't get enough lift just from your recruiters, that's for sure, so that's one thing.

And, the other reason is it just builds the culture of giving back, and so you wanna build that feeling in your employee base, that that's something that's really important, so getting them involved will be critical.

And lastly, they're the folks who are going to be talking to their friends, posting on Glassdoor about what it's like to work there, so if they don't feel engaged in the process, they're probably not going to say what you want them to say and that'll impact your sort of external perception. So, they're super critical.

Anish Bhimani: So, get your employees involved.

Matt Mitro: Absolutely.

Anish Bhimani: Matt, thanks very much for joining us today.

Matt Mitro: My pleasure, thanks Anish.

Anish Bhimani: And thanks to all of our listeners for joining us today, tune in next time.

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