EMEA in Conversation | Eyes on Europe

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Charlotte Broom: Hello, Making Sense listeners. Today, we're handing over the feed to EMEA in Conversation, a new J.P. Morgan podcast featuring in-depth interviews with industry leaders on what's happening across Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. Making Sense will return to its regular schedule on Friday, April 3rd, when Mike Feroli, Chief US Economist, joins the podcast to give us his thoughts on the upcoming US employment report, as well as the path ahead for the economy and the Fed. But for now, enjoy this special episode from J.P. Morgan's EMEA in Conversation.

Stew Cofer: Welcome, business leaders, innovators, and the globally curious. Consider this your front row seat to what's next in EMEA. Welcome to EMEA in conversation. Hello, I'm Stew Cofer, EMEA head of payment specialist, commercialization and embedded finance for J.P. Morgan Payments. I'm joined by Alison Livesey, our UK and Europe head of subsidiary banking in the global corporate bank. We will talk about what all of this means today as we talk about global expansion, scale, and security here in Europe. So, Alison, we're talking about Europe today, and when you look at Europe like me, you must be thinking this is moving so fast. There are new value layers, evolving regulation, all kinds of digital transformation. If I was really bold and ask you to put Europe in one word, what would it be?

Alison Livesey: I think I would say accelerating. I think, like you say, Europe is moving at an incredible pace. If you think about instant everything, instant payments, the regulation that is changing, just that the resiliency, everything that's coming to the fore, I think that accelerating i- is really a word I would use to describe.

Stew Cofer: I think that's great. And what a great premise for our conversation as we think about accelerating that matches businesses, their ambition-

Alison Livesey: Absolutely.

Stew Cofer: ... the evolving landscape, let's get into it. So, Alison, let's start with something easy, but potentially unfair. Europe is a mix of different markets, different cultures, different personalities, just about everything. And if you're a business here looking to thrive, you have to deal with a lot. If you were to describe Europe as a personality, what would you say?

Alison Livesey: Ooh, I think I would probably describe Europe as maybe high achieving. If you think about the diversity of, of culture, the different regulation that we have, the pace of change that we're seeing, I think all of that is underpinned by a real desire to be scalable, to be strategic, and really built on trust.

Stew Cofer: And that's true, and, and it's not slowing down either, is it? As we get into the conversation, I think we'll learn just what a high achiever Europe is.

Alison Livesey: Absolutely.

Stew Cofer: From where you sit, what are some of the biggest shifts you see happening in Europe right now?

Alison Livesey: So I think as we look at Europe as a whole, the biggest thing that we're seeing is, um, it's shifting from a very kind of isolated e- ecosystem into really a much more wider transformational ecosystem. We think about instant everything, instant payments, interoperability, programmable payments, the regulatory landscape. If you think about, you know, items like PSD3, PSR, et cetera, what you're seeing is really a leveling out of the playing field and both banks and fintechs having to really kind of up their game and, and, and think about what that competitive landscape looks like. And all of that is, is very dynamic for Europe a- a- as a marketplace, uh, really coupled with trust, trust for the consumer, trust for businesses, and, and ultimately trust for the system.

Stew Cofer: I think it's fascinating. Those, those things are all happening, of course, but when you think about what the regulations are, are doing here and how much innovation is coming in, we're somewhat raising the floor of what's possible and bringing up everyone to a really interesting competitive level that enables even more innovation to thrive here.

Alison Livesey: Absolutely. And I think that's what's really exciting about Europe at the moment. If you think about how Europe is positioned, it really is that, that exciting platform for innovation, really driving companies to be able to scale in a, in a way that is, um, is positive for them. Uh, harmonized a regulatory infrastructure really allows for a common understanding of what the guardrails are. It gives them a freedom to innovate and understand, you know, the conditions in which they're innovating in, and really gives, you know, kind of ultimately the customers and the consumers that trust in the system.

Stew Cofer: And trust is, is so important. I mean, we talked about, you know, a mix of cultures, markets, payment types, interoperability. If you're a company looking to solve a multicurrency problem, that problem or solution might find its home in Europe. And so the guardrails that you put around that, the frameworks that we see evolving, you know, you mentioned the PSD3, the Third Payment Services Directive, just shows how much cooperation is necessary for this region to thrive. And it remains a destination for a lot of companies to solve those complex challenges.

Alison Livesey: Absolutely. Stew Cofer: As global markets evolve and technology begins to reshape how money moves, when we look at Europe, there are three things I wanted to ask you about: digital transformation, global expansion, security. Three big themes that any business looking at Europe is considering. When you talk to our clients, what do you see along those three themes?

Alison Livesey: So when you think about what, um, what companies are looking to do and how they're looking to grow, treasurers are, are, are very, very focused on, um, both an ability to manage, you know, kind of the liquidity position, manage it in a way that is highly efficient for them. Automation is a key component to that. The more that we can automate, the more that we can see kind of straight through processing, the better the business runs. From a second perspective, I would say risk and control is, is a high component. And I think the digital agenda really, really takes us there and really gives, you know, kind of both banking partners, but also, uh, companies that ability to understand their risks and controls. And then when you think about that global expansion, I think Europe is such a, a key market for, for companies looking to expand in, and therefore that journey that we're going on as a region is just an incredible one and, and one that really helps to push the business forward. Payments, or certainly what I'm seeing in my conversations is that payments are a really key conversation now at companies and really very much at the center of conversations. I'd say payments are a key enabler of how businesses grow and businesses scale, and that's very, very different to what we saw maybe 10 years ago.

Stew Cofer: That's right. Payments are everywhere, certainly an enabler. You know, back to digitization, it's really interesting to think about attitudes to digital, because of course, as you automate a process, you wanna retain the security and control-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... but automation allows them to have more speed. Uh, at the same time, security can sometimes mean fic- friction. You know, we want fast, fast, fast-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... but, but maybe friction, you know, stop, stop that payment. Um, but attitudes to digital are, are really important. I think about countries like Norway, that [inaudible 00:06:47] payments have had widespread social and regulatory recognition of digital ID's importance-

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: ... for example, outside of companies, but just for individuals. So far beyond payments, digital IDs are integrated into daily life.

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: And it's not just the data about the individual, it's the pattern that emerges from all these as well. But it's implicit that to digitize, you need trust, and that also applies to businesses as well, for sure.

Alison Livesey: Absolutely. And I think as a region, and, and for us probably as individuals, like, we're very, very used to that digital recognition that we, we have to go through that, that single customer authentication. You're probably better placed than I to, to explain that. But I think that is really important. It's something that we don't view as friction, we just view as commonplace, and, and that's different to other parts of the world, and that's very, very important and allows, you know, that ability to, for companies to scale, but also, uh, give a much more, uh, common client experience, common experience out there to the market.

Stew Cofer: It's interesting to think about the, the right friction at the right moment.

Alison Livesey: Right.

Stew Cofer: And if you looked at Europe from the outside, you might say that's high friction, but then of course, before the introduction of things like strong customer authentication, fraud rates would've been higher. Um, so it's one of those cases of two things being true. It is friction-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... but it is safety.

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: And after you're safe, you can allow more speed, um, incorporating some of that friction into what you do. So it's just a fascinating balance of, of speed and friction together we have to keep in mind.

Alison Livesey: Definitely. And I think the other thing that's interesting is that you see differing ... like, as time goes on, people's patience around kind of friction beco- ... you know, now, you know, if I'm trying to buy something on my, um, my phone and I have to get off the sofa and get a card to put another number in, like, that to me is friction, but actually the experience is, is still a pretty good one. So I think our tolerances of individuals have definitely changed and gone through that evolution. And then just to touch on another point that you made, I think the control is a, an important element as well in terms of, you know, the work that the industry does around fraud controls, cyber controls, et cetera. There's a huge amount of investment that goes into that, and that is incredibly important in a world of, you know, changing threats of ever-increasing kind of volatility, be that geopolitical or otherwise, I think that ability to, um, for, for companies to understand, you know, kind of those mechanisms that we can use as institutions to protect both them but also the ultimate consumer is very important.

Stew Cofer: There's a, another interplay there I quite like. One of the most unpopular things ever probably is patients in payments.

Alison Livesey:  (laughs)-

Stew Cofer: It just doesn't exist, right? (laughs) So when we actually get to have-

Alison Livesey: Want it now.

Stew Cofer: Right.

Alison Livesey: Immediately.

Stew Cofer: I've, I've just never heard patients in payments being a popular thing. And yet, if we can define surgically where and why that's important, you get an interested ear from pretty much everyone. Why did this transaction stop? Why did we digitize this? What pattern did we see? How could we be smarter about understanding what's usual and what's not?

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: Um, but these questions only emerge because we've adopted innovation with such a velocity that we're doing so much complexity at scale all the time. And so it's, it's, again, an interesting conversation, isn't it?

Alison Livesey: Absolutely. And I think the other point ... I, I think you make a really good point there, which is payments are such a lever for how businesses scale and how businesses grow. And whereas historically, you know, the, what the payment mechanism or, or method might have been a thought at the end of, say, how you thought about a product or bringing something to market or opening a new market, whereas nowadays, it's very much at the center of all of those conversations because I think different buying centers, if you like, or different departments of, of a client have really understood the value and the power of the payment and how quickly you can commercialize that opportunity, be it a new product launch, be it a new market, uh, across border component. And so that's the other thing that's different. I think there's lots more different teams and companies that are interested in understanding, you know, the exciting world of payments. Historically, very much treasury, maybe CFO, but now you see some payments departments themselves building up. You see the, um, you know, the chief customer officer or success officer, maybe the product officer, you know, all these different types of people now are very, very interested in what that payments experience looks like and the different components and understand much more the sensitivity around where there are potential friction points, but also, like you say, the security and, and how we make sure we protect that.

Stew Cofer: And what I'm hearing in what you say there, right, is that when you talk about the payments experience, right? Everyone that you trade with, and certainly as consumers, every business that we interact with, we do measure them somewhat by the payments experience they impose on us.

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: And so when you think about, you know, our clients and their relationships with their suppliers-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... their customers, payments are so integral. And, and we're in a world where that can't be an afterthought. It has to be considered, deliberate and focused experience of the payments that you use when you interact with these counterparties. And so it's, it's really becoming a really important part of the relationship-

Alison Livesey: Absolutely.

Stew Cofer: ... that you have with clients. It can enable you to grow, can enable you-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... to solve challenges, open you to new markets, just like you've said, but it really comes down to that fundamental relationship between yourself and who you're paying or-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... being paid by.

Alison Livesey: A- and that whole ecosystem.

Stew Cofer: Hmm.

Alison Livesey: I think there is a greater understanding of what that ecosystem looks like.

Stew Cofer: Hmm.

Alison Livesey: And that ecosystem is absolutely global with lots of different component pieces, whether it's the supply chain [inaudible 00:12:04], et cetera, and understanding all of that and how that comes together, which I think is why, you know, it's such an exciting time for you and I to sit here in Europe because there's so much going on. We're so much at the forefront of how we drive that and such a natural place for companies to come into and grow and thrive i- i- in that, um, in that environment.

Stew Cofer: Yeah, so Europe is interesting because of where it is, when it is-

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: ... from a timezone perspective, but also what it is right now. And certainly in payments, that's true.

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: Let's talk about speed. Instant payments have been in Europe for a very long time and in many other corners of the globe for a very long time as well. When you think about what instant payments has or can unlock for companies, the dialogue seems to be shifting right now. What do you think is possible with instant payments being everywhere?

Alison Livesey: So I think we're seeing that real shift from a growth beyond instant payments really into interoperability in terms of, you know, across all products, across all markets, and ultimately across borders. And this is important for clients and something that's very interesting to them because when you think about, say, the euro and the removal of transaction limits, that's a really kind of positive change that allows, you know, a, a greater ability to manage money real-time, it allows greater flexibility, you have greater da- data, and all of that is, is again, allowing companies to scale at a much faster pace, but with that, that security and, and that resilience, which they still need in the system, but fundamentally that ability to scale globally, to scale across markets, and to deliver a consistent customer experience. And I think that's very, very important. When you think about, you know, global companies looking to do business really around the world, that consistency of, of customer experience is very important.

Stew Cofer: And as you say that, Alison, what's interesting to me is that with removal of limits and, you know, instant payments being everywhere, there is a reason to look at instant payments again, because I think speed is in the title, it's implicit. But in fact, one of the major attractive elements of real-time payments is that you always know who has the money at any given time, so certainty-

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: ... is arriving with greater reach and penetration as well, which also came through with the instant payments regulation. So you have limits-removing, you have everyone participating, you have also this implicit ability to know where the money is, not just that it got there faster. It's a really interesting time to challenge that perception. Like, if it's not instant, and I don't know if you, the final beneficiary, have the money, why don't I?

Alison Livesey: Absolutely.

Stew Cofer: And that's the shift, as opposed to instant being better than, it's, "Why is everything not?"

Alison Livesey: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think it is, it is the, an ability to understand that anywhere in the world, as in, you know, kind of the person that needs to understand that data doesn't necessarily need to sit in country anymore. That ability to have that visibility-

Stew Cofer: Hmm.

Alison Livesey: ... and to understand that visibility of global cash positions or how you think about that is, is really important too.

Stew Cofer: It is. And, and maybe one of those other just slightly under the surface differences with instant payments is that maybe as consumers, we've been under the perception that money really moves in our bank accounts over weekends, but in fact, the banks that we have and the central banks that they use have not moved money over the weekends, but that's now changed, right?

Alison Livesey: Mm-hmm.

Stew Cofer: So when you have central bank money moving over the weekends and banks able to manage their liquidity positions, there's a ripple effect from that center out with even greater impact than we've, we've possibly seen so far.

Alison Livesey: Definitely. And I think what's exciting for companies around that is the ability to push those advantages down ultimately to their, to, to their client base. And that, you know, [inaudible 00:15:37] just a fundamental shift of that, say, allows them to think about how they scale faster, how they see money quicker, how their, you know, sales cycle might shorten. All of that is of an, an advantage. And then it plays into what we talked about earlier, which is that ability to grow and scale and, and, and build quicker, either in this region or, or globally.

Stew Cofer: From ripple effects to ripple benefits.

Alison Livesey: (laughs) Fantastic.

Stew Cofer: Wonderful. Exactly. And with all of this acceleration and speed, that puts a lot of pressure on the existing ecosystem to accommodate. Now, I am approached often here by many that say Europe is complex, highly regulated. How can I navigate all of those challenges? I think there's quite a healthy debate in that sense that in one way, yes, there's control being introduced, there's a leveling of a playing field, but not so as a constraint, but almost a catalyst. What do you think about that dynamic and debate? Where do you fall?

Alison Livesey: I follow on th- on the spectrum that says that I think the regulation that we're seeing and th- the change that we're going through and the regulation that is laid out there is actually really healthy for the market and for the, for the ecosystem. I think it provides a, a clear set of rules and regulations that really is leveling the playing field and allowing both banks and fintechs to raise their game, which is ultimately good for, for clients. It's ultimately good for, for consumers. But I also think the regulatory environment is really helping to ensure that the ecosystem is trusted, it's, it's secure, it's operating efficiently, and ultimately that is allowing, you know, business to grow, companies to scale. And I think it's very, very positive. I think there's a, there's a lift for clients in terms of understanding all the different rules and regulations. We talked about, you know, those a little earlier. But fundamentally, I think it's, I think it's very positive and I think it's a, it's a clear advantage for, for companies wanting to do business in Europe. It, it's, it's very clear how to operate and, and, and that gives companies an ability to understand how they need to scale and they can scale with confidence and, and really, uh, take their business forward.

Stew Cofer: So worth understanding. Can take your business forward on the basis of it. So regulation making things faster and better.

Alison Livesey: I think so.

Stew Cofer: You don't hear that sentence very often.

Alison Livesey: You don't hear that often.

Stew Cofer: You don't.

Alison Livesey: No, that's very true.

Stew Cofer: On the topic of innovation, Europe already has quite a lot that it has done. We have many companies that we work with that have already achieved quite a bit. From that position of having innovated so, so much for many, many years, I think Europe still has next for some of these companies. That next looks like tokenized deposits, global money movement, embracing technology that's somewhat the leading edge horizon, not for everyone-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... but still available to those that demand to be the best and understand how they sit against competition. So when you think about next tokenization for those highly innovative companies already, what would you say to them as next?

Alison Livesey: And I think you said something really interesting there. So I think if I pick up, you've used a series of words of what we, sitting in the industry, kind of really understand as what is next, tokenized deposits, you know, maybe we get to a blockchain, et cetera. But I think when you actually talk to, to companies and sit down with them and, and talk to particularly their treasury departments, one of the biggest things that they're saying to us is, you know, "What is, what does next look like? What is out there? How can you talk to us about what those concepts are?" The biggest thing that, you know, we hear from clients is that they don't want to be left behind. They want to understand what is out there, but, but I think there is a, a journey that we're on to really take these concepts and really make them relatable and understandable to, say, treasurers in their treasury infrastructure or, or within their company. How can these things help me? I, I, I know that they're a good thing. I know they're probably gonna improve my control environment, they're gonna improve my efficiency, but, but, but, but what does ... You know, when you take the theory, what does it mean in practice? What are the use cases? So, you know, I know one of the things you spend a lot of time talking to companies about is what those use cases are and what they look like. And I think that's really important for people to understand that, you know, we're still on a journey. People are trying to understand how to think about these things. Programmable payments for me is probably the one that, that comes up the most. Um, you know, a fairly simple concept of I can set a rule and, and program it and, and the payment goes. I mean, we, we, we laugh and we think, oh, that's fairly simple, but actually quite a game changer, very easy to implement and very efficient and you get an immediate, immediate gain and immediate lift. And so I think as we talk to clients, it's very much about what are the ages and stages. As you said at the beginning, you know, different companies are at different stages of their journey. Um, some may be ne- nearer the beginning, some very much at that top end looking for, for what is next and maybe that, what does that tokenized value bring? But I think it is really about understanding where you are going on that journey, but breaking down these, these theoretical concepts and really talking about use cases, where can they add value, where are they accretive to my organization? And then, you know, what we talked about earlier, fundamentally, how do they help me scale at a quicker pace and, and bring value to the business?

Stew Cofer: So even for companies that are on the horizon, we see early adoption of brand new technology that is based on asking the main questions, "What helps my business? What are the use cases?" And when we think about programmable payments, this sounds like payments that think for themselves, which could be exciting or terrifying (laughs)-

Alison Livesey: (laughs)-

Stew Cofer: ... if you-

Alison Livesey: Depending on your perspective.

Stew Cofer: That's right. But what we can agree is that they are accelerating.

Alison Livesey: Yeah, definitely.

Stew Cofer: One of the many benefits we've seen companies derive from Europe is its maturity, not only in the market events we've been talking about, but also the talent that's here, the implicit multicurrency focus and ability to go capture complex opportunities. In your subsidiary leadership role, what do you see subsidiaries deriving value from here in Europe?

Alison Livesey: Yeah, it's, um, it's a great question. I think Europe is just such a ... I mean, we sit here, so we would say this, but I think Europe is just such an incredible center for, like you say, regional treasury centers. So, you know, we sit here with London, we have Dublin, we have, uh, Zurich, we have Amsterdam, we have Germany, Luxembourg. Like, it's such a, there's such a breadth of, of, of different regional treasury centers across the European location. And I think that's advantageous because depending on where you decide to set up your treasury hub, where your operations are, you really have your pick of, of those regional treasury centers, those centralization centers. I think that's a huge advantage. And then like you say, the ta- the depth of talent, the seniority, the growth of the junior talent coming through, the breadth of the talent that we see both in terms of professionals, but also the support ecosystem when you think about tax advisors, law firms, like, that is an abundance in Europe, and, and I think a really differentiating factor, just demonstrating the, the breadth of knowledge that we have, the, the stability of, of what that European franchise is, and, and just that growth opportunity.

Stew Cofer: So those that are here already know this well.

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: But if you're approaching Europe from the outside, it's important, I suppose you would say, that there is a practiced, understood way to run a very, uh, you know, complex operation here very efficiently in a scalable, digital way, and many have done it. So there's a lot to learn from.

Alison Livesey: Yes. And, and many, many peer groups to call on, many different experiences. Yeah, very, very much so. And I think that's very, very compelling for, for how you think about setting up. The other thing that I think is incredible about Europe or is a real advantage to global companies is that ability to, to cross the time zones, and we see that very much so that, you know, particularly, say, North American companies coming in might choose to place somebody in Europe, they have that ability to have that reach out into Asia and cover those time zones, be it, you know, an international role or a global role. And I think that's, that really is an advantage for us and, and, and certainly something that we see companies doing, frankly, more and more of.

Stew Cofer: And Europe is highly connected in my role. It's about moving money. So as you connect east to west-

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: ... Europe is always-

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: ... there and-

Alison Livesey: Always sitting there at the center, the-

Stew Cofer: Always there.

Alison Livesey: ... the hive of everything, which is amazing and, and exciting for you and I to, to work in.

Stew Cofer: Indeed. All that we've been talking about really has implication on how businesses grow. Payments were once a back office concepts, now they're a very much front of mind idea. Why is that?

Alison Livesey: I think it is really payments being that, that key important lever to allowing businesses to grow. I think it is that they are very much front and center. Why are they front and center? I think that is because there is a, a really much greater understanding of how they allow companies to launch products faster, go into new markets quicker, give that seamless, um, client experience and really allow companies to think about what their growth agenda looks like and how they deliver, you know, kind of fastly to the market. I think what is unique, certainly from my vantage point, having sat in payments for the last kind of 15 years, is that payments are very much now the center of a conversation. I think there probably are very few conversations where, you know, there isn't some understanding or discussion around payments, and they're very much in the midst of that conversation. I think when you go back, you know, many years before, that just was not the case. They were probably an afterthought, but now that, you know, ultimately they are providing a seamless payments experience, provides a greater opportunity for a company to commercialize at a much faster rate, and that is highly, highly compelling and, and frankly, extremely exciting.

Stew Cofer: It's interesting to hear you say that. It, it certainly is more prevalent in conversations that we have.

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: And there's an understanding of the impact of payments on-

Alison Livesey: Yeah.

Stew Cofer: ... the customer experience. And six words I always remember, they seem to ring true no matter who I say them to, and you can say them to me and they'd still be true. Payments do more than you think.

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: Absolutely true, no matter who you say it to, anywhere you go.

Alison Livesey: Yeah. Yeah.

Stew Cofer: And it's certainly true here. And everyone's eyes are on payments now. Not bad for something you never used to think about.

Alison Livesey: Very true. The other thing I think is exciting about payments which I would never have thought about is payments help drive kind of customer loyalty as well. You know, I think about the companies that I repeatedly go back and buy from, and the truth is they, a- aside from the quality components of the product, there is also a component that is, "What does that payments experience look like?" And if it's seamless and easy and, and I really enjoy it, then I'm much more inclined to go back. And I think that's also a mindset shift that we've seen, you know, kind of with digital adoption and, and beyond, which is, is very exciting for companies.

Stew Cofer: It's a good measuring stick for any-

Alison Livesey: Mm-hmm.

Stew Cofer: ... company interaction. Was this payment experience thoughtfully considered?

Alison Livesey: Yes.

Stew Cofer: Yes or no?

Alison Livesey: Yes. Very binary, yes or no. I agree.

Stew Cofer: Well, that really brings our conversation full circle. We are not just modernizing in Europe, we are talking about a brand new future. And as we talk about that future, it is crystal ball time.

Alison Livesey: (laughs)-

Stew Cofer: So Alison, if you had this conversation with me one year from now, how do you think it would change? What do you see?

Alison Livesey: Tough question. (laughs) Uh, I think probably it is all those things that we talked about in terms of the what's coming next, the programmable payments, tokenization. I think it is all those kind of being here and now, people adopting, uh, being ready for. I think that's what's coming next.

Stew Cofer: I love that, Alison. In Europe, find your next. Discover, adopt, and share it. Alison, thanks so much for joining our conversation today. This has been EMEA in Conversation.

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